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Subject:   Traveller-digest V1996 #202
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Traveller-digest            Tuesday, 2 July 1996        Volume 1996 : Number 202

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Marines vs Legion
         2. Re: Joe's Anonymity (was Joe's Quotes)
         3. Re: Things on MY monitor
         4. Re: Mathematics in Traveller
         5. Re: BL vs. BR
         6. Re: Ship Name and Deckplans
         7. Re: Sylean Exploration Corp.
         8. Re: Virus Flame War, et. al
         9. RE: Fission reactors
        10. Re:  Re: Marines vs. Army
        11. Re: [T96#187] Languages
        12. Re: Sylean Exploration Corp.
        13. Re: Disposable PCs
        14. Re: Joe's Anonymity (was Joe's Quotes)
        15. Re: Virus Flame War, et. al
        16. Re: Sylean Exploration Corp.
        17. Re: Deckplans
        18. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #190

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Tom Ellis <tellis@telerama.lm.com>
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 14:09:59 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Marines vs Legion

On Tue, 2 Jul 1996 t01bpa@abdn.ac.uk wrote:
> 
> "The assault course in the rainforest is tough and grueling.  The
> quickest time recorded was 45 minutes by som legionnaires.  The longest
> time recorded to complete the course was by a bunch of visiting 
> American Marines, who took 7 hours to complete it."
> 
> My point is that the biggest force and best 'advanced' may not
> be the best for the job.

Very true, but was any mention made as to whether the legionaires were
already familiar with the course when the record was set?



> 
> Program ran on Channel 4, last week Mon+Tuesday 9.00-10.00.
> 
> 

_______________________________________________________
Tom Ellis
tellis@telerama.lm.com
http://www.lm.com/~tellis/

"No! Do, or do not.  There is not try." Yoda
_______________________________________________________ 


------------------------------

From: anwfh@orion.alaska.edu (William F. Hostman)
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 10:38:31 -0800
Subject: Re: Joe's Anonymity (was Joe's Quotes)

>
>From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
>Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 20:21:18 -0500 (CDT)
>Subject: Re: Joe's Quotes

>My usual rule is, no one knows when I read any given message, so if it
>upsets me, I wait a few hours until I can approach it calmly and
>rationally.  I didn't do that, and I'm suffering for it.  Please,
>everyone, just forget I said that.

Joe, the above header is from the digest version of the list... I can guess
that you wrote the message I am responding to at some point between the
listed time and 2 hours before...

;-)

William F. Hostman

Aramis@AsylumBBS.com



------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 11:49:49 -0800
Subject: Re: Things on MY monitor

On  2 Jul 96 at 10:06, Bruce Johnson spewed:

> oB TRaveller: Any of you from around Tucson know what it's like, but 
> the annual Gem and Mineral Show(s) here in February is the largest of 

Bruce, 

Where do you live in Tucson?  I lived there for about a year several 
years ago.  I'm now back in Phoenix...

Before you get too excited though, I'm an ASU grad...

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 19:18:20 GMT
Subject: Re: Mathematics in Traveller

On Mon, 1 Jul 1996 21:37:52 -0500 (CDT), Joe Walsh wrote:

> A bunch 'o stuff 'bout die roll odds

Damn you, Joe!  I can't add *anything* to this thread  8-)

I got one for you.  It's based on the old AD&D statistic generation
methods.  If memory serves me correctly (and it's been many years), I
believe they had two additional ways to generate the 3-18 result for each
stat besides the normal 3d6 roll (there was a third method that involved
rolling a certain number of dice and adding a fixed amount, and then
distributing them as the player saw fit, but that method might be too
difficult to calculate).  They were:

...2d6+6

...4d6 (ignore the lowest die result)

Now... which one of these methods will mathmatically produce the better
(ie: higher) result?  The gauntlet has been dropped  8-)



James W. Lindsay      Vancouver, British Columbia

"WIZARD PARKING ONLY"... All Others Will Be Toad.

------------------------------

From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 19:18:23 GMT
Subject: Re: BL vs. BR

On Tue, 2 Jul 1996 02:21:46 -0700 (PDT), Wes Payne wrote:

> Thus spake jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay):
>  
> > Perhaps you can tell me what tonnage, armour, weaponry, etc. are "canon"
> > for these big ships.  I want to begin a campaign shortly after T4 comes out
> > and I don't really want to pick up BR just to see how TNE designs their
> > capital ships (perhaps when IG designs a set of advanced ship combat rules,
> > but not before then  8-)
> 
> It's hard to say, really.  All I ever used were the encounter tables in 
> the TNE rulebook and the "Vampire Fleets" sourcebook.  Picking up BR 
> won't give you any insight on how TNE designed large ships; they were all 
> designed using the FF&S system.  What BR does is take the FF&S stats and 
> cooks them down into a format that allows them to be used with its 
> simplified combat system.  There's been some previous discussion on what 
> tonnage ranges constituted battleships, cruisers, and whatnot (and these 
> figures will vary between Milieus, as the recent discussions on Sylean 
> warships bears out).  Ballpark figures (my own guesses) have battleships 
> weighing in over 100,000 tons or so, cruisers filling the gap between 
> about 10,000 tons and 100,000 tons, and frigates, corvettes and 
> destroyers being 10,000 tons or less.  Carriers, I suppose, could be any 
> damn size they wanted to be.

Ok... then perhaps I can pry this information out of you guys in a
different way.  I own a copy of Fighting Ships for MT but don't actually
own the game.  In it battleships and riders have armour 90-120, cruisers...
57-100, and escorts... 40-60.  How do these values rate compared to CT or
TNE armour values?  In HG, too much armour could make a ship virtually
invincible.  I'm clueless to what is a formidable armour rating in TNE
(without going overboard).

BTW, who is "Jesse Helms"?  Any relation to Uncle Jesse from Dukes of
Hazzard?


James W. Lindsay            Vancouver, British Columbia

Taz sez, "Ack! Icky plptht TAZ grunga yeek... PLPTHT!!!"

------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 96 14:15:06 -0600
Subject: Re: Ship Name and Deckplans

On 06/22/96 at 11:03 PM,  "David C.. Broussard" <broussa@connecti.com>
said:
   --------
   
Gee, David! This didn't get here until 07/2/96...
   
>Campaign Cartographer is a really great mapping program that comes
>with a Traveller Style Scout Ship.  It saves to BMP or PCX format,
>and makes wonderful maps.  

I was on their web site yesterday, and it does look very interesting.
There wasn't any indication that you could draw ship deckplans though,
and that's what I was looking for.  But you say you can?  That's
great!  Does it have the option of placing a hex or square grid behind
the maps/plans?  I didn't see that either.  What about objects to
populate a ship..does it have any placeable objects?

>I will try and put some on my Web Page after July 4th (I am off that
>day)

Please do.  I'd like to take a look.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 96 10:57:47 PST
Subject: Re: Sylean Exploration Corp.

jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay) writes:

> On Mon, 01 Jul 96 14:34:09 PST, Leonard Erickson wrote:
> 
> > We have (or had) a TV series here in the US based on a guy who was a
> > weirdness magnet. I think it was called "Strange Luck". They actually
> > handled the concept fairly well. 
> 
> Might not have it for long.  Its filmed up here in Vancouver and it doesn't
> look like it will get a crack at season two.  Too bad, really.  Now
> Sentinel, on the other hand, P-U.

But just imagine that guy as a Patron, or better yet, an NPC taking
passage on the same ship.

"I don't understand it. The odds of that det-laser missile firing
*backwards*, and managing to critical the pirate ship that launched it
are simply astronomical!"

"Nah, happens all the time...." :-)


Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 96 11:12:42 PST
Subject: Re: Virus Flame War, et. al

Wes Payne <n9548326@cc.wwu.edu> writes:

> that could not be spoofed.  The Imperium wanted little electronic 'honest 
> brokers' to be sure that no (civilian) ship misrepresented itself.  To 
> this end they not only developed the SDG-313F chips, which were more or 
> less immune to unauthorized alteration (the 'black box' in which they 
> were contained would fry itself if ever opened or disconnected).  In 

Y'know, it just occured to me that booby trapping those transponders
was a violation of Imperial law! Remember, those chips are *sentient*
lifeforms! So frying them is murder. 

There are ways around this, but they get rather weird and convoluted.

> It may be stupid, but it's canon, unless you want to find and burn every 
> extant copy of "Survival Margin."

It's a tempting thought.... :-)


Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 96 11:17:36 PST
Subject: RE: Fission reactors

ROWAN Iain <wm0iro@acresearch.sunderland.ac.uk> writes:

> The great difference between fission powered transport in the
> world today, and fission powered transport in Traveller, is that
> as far as I know today all such craft are in the control of the
> military. 

Ahem.

SS Savannah. Passenger liner. Nuclear powered.

> In Traveller they are in the control of a motley assortment
> of weirdos and criminals, not to mention all the NPC's.  Do you
> really think that military standards of maintenance and safety
> will be adhered to?

It's possible to make them a lot more idiot proof. Plus, people are a
lot less likely to take shortcuts if it's their pink bod at stake.
Pilots tend to take a lot better care of their plane than Joe average
does of his car.

> I could certainly imagine many worlds wanting to take great
> care that any ship being flown over their city which had a
> fission reactor sitting in the middle of it met pretty rigorous
> standards of inspection and safety, which of course, they would
> need to enforce.  If those ships were piloted by  the average
> group of PC's, I should imagine that a VERY close inspection
> would be made.  If the reactor was not being adequately
> maintained (or the PC's failed to bribe the inspectors/
> inadvertently insulted them etc) the ship would be grounded.

Aside from the contamination problem (which can be handled fairly
easily if not cheaply), the danger due to the fission reactor is pretty
damn low. There's a far greater danger simply from the kinetic energy
of a ship.

The only things that can go wrong (outside of deliberate sabotage)
during takeoff or landing are loss of power, or being unable to shut
down. 

Loss of power is much the same danger with any ship. It's just that the
pieces will be radioactive. (Actually, given what we know about fusion,
they'll only be *more* radioactive, fusion reactions give off neutrons,
and the inside of the reactor does get radioactive).

If you can't get the reactor to shut down (actually "reduce power")
then you cut the fuel supply, and deal with it in when the manuever is
completed. It's not gonna melt down any time soon. 

The reactor is no more dangerous than a cargo of radioactives, or
various toxic materials. Hell, if there's a railroad running thru your
town, go down and look at a freight train sometime. Try and make note
of what all those tank cars are carrying. Then look the chemicals up
and figure out what happens if there's a wreck and some of them break
open. 


Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 96 11:43:03 PST
Subject: Re:  Re: Marines vs. Army

"Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@smtpgate.read.tasc.com> writes:

>    In point of fact, services around the world do consider the U.S.
> Marine infantry to be a cut above your standard Army infantry, on a par
> with the elite 82nd or 101st Airborne divisions of the U.S. Army.  Their
> armor units are lacking however (most of them still have M-60A3 tanks,
> and what M-A1s they have were stolen/requisitioned from the Army),
> and their artillery support relies heavily on supplementation from the Navy
> in the form of off-shore bombardment, and their own aircraft (the Harrier,
> F/A-18, SuperCobra, etc.).

Ah, but you have to admit that the New Jersey is a fair trade for one
*hell* of a lot of regular artillery. :-)

>    In TRAVELLER terms (because I know sombody is going to complain
> if I don't), Marines could have a variety of roles, depending upon the
> basic philosophy of the armed forces using them.  

I'm trying to remember the three types of Marines in Pournelle's
Co-Dominium series. Garrison, Line, and Fleet (I think).

The Garrison Marines basicly did garrison duty. They occupied
territory, but down riots, that sort of thing. Cobat skills so/so, but
they definitely look pretty, and they follow orders.

Line Marines were the folks that you sent in to take territory away
from people they aren't much on spit and polish, but they fight. Oh do
they fight. They follow orders, but only because the orders come from
*their* officers. (They seem to have inherited a lot from the Foreign
Legion, including the bit about "You have joined the Marines to die.
The Fleet will send you where you can die")

Fleet marines spent most of their time on shipboard....


Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 96 12:00:47 PST
Subject: Re: [T96#187] Languages

Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com> writes:

> Quoth Leonard Erickson, re: British occupation of Egypt:
> > Well, there *is* a limit on the spread of English in that situation.
> > Islam. While they tolerate translation of the Koran, to be a true
> > Muslim, you have to read it in the original Arabic. That sets a *hard*
> > limit on penetration of any other language, at least as long as the
> > religion endures.
> 
> So you might get a situation akin to Sanskrit in India, used only for 
> religious purposes and scholarly efforts, or to Latin in the pre-Vatican-
> II Catholic church.  One language for secular purposes, one for religious.

Well, unlike the Catholic church's use of Latin, in Islam the
*people* have to read the scriptures. No idea how this compares with
the Indian situation.


Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 96 12:05:10 PST
Subject: Re: Sylean Exploration Corp.

Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca> writes:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
> 
> > I have a toy racoon, and a large pink rabbit (looks like he's related
> > to the Energizer Bunny, if you get those commercials down there)
> > sitting in corners watching me. And my messages aren't strange. (yeah,
> > right...)
> 
> Down There?  Don't you mean up here?  I'm assuming that you're writing 
> from the States and Canada is generally considered up from the US of A.  
> Where did you think I was writing from?

Sorry, I thought you were one of the Aussies.


Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 20:08:29 GMT
Subject: Re: Disposable PCs

On Tue, 2 Jul 1996 12:56:50 -0500, Paul Walker wrote:

> You guys kept trying to argue that it was the CCG market that was stealing
> RPGers!!  And here you were really killing them all the time!  Souns like a
> case for the Wonder Twins!  ("Wonder Twin powers, activate"  "Form of, an
> Ice Rock." "Shape of, a Computer Virus")

And they say we only use 20% of our grey-matter.  What possessed you to
remember that little bit of the eighties?  The mind boggles....  8-)

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 15:15:51 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Joe's Anonymity (was Joe's Quotes)

On Tue, 2 Jul 1996, William F. Hostman wrote:

> >
> >From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
> >Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 20:21:18 -0500 (CDT)
> >Subject: Re: Joe's Quotes
> 
> >My usual rule is, no one knows when I read any given message, so if it
> >upsets me, I wait a few hours until I can approach it calmly and
> >rationally.  I didn't do that, and I'm suffering for it.  Please,
> >everyone, just forget I said that.
> 
> Joe, the above header is from the digest version of the list... I can guess
> that you wrote the message I am responding to at some point between the
> listed time and 2 hours before...
> 
> ;-)

Right...you know when I responded...not when I first read the message.  I 
may have read the message I was responding to right after it was sent 
out...or two minutes before I posted my response.  


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 13:27:34 -0700
Subject: Re: Virus Flame War, et. al

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> 
> Wes Payne <n9548326@cc.wwu.edu> writes:
> 
>>that could not be spoofed.  The Imperium wanted little electronic 
>>'honest brokers' to be sure that no (civilian) ship misrepresented 
>>itself.  To this end they not only developed the SDG-313F chips, which 
>>were more or less immune to unauthorized alteration (the 'black box' in 
>>which they were contained would fry itself if ever opened or 
>>disconnected).  In
> 
> Y'know, it just occured to me that booby trapping those transponders
> was a violation of Imperial law! Remember, those chips are *sentient*
> lifeforms! So frying them is murder.
> 
> There are ways around this, but they get rather weird and convoluted.

Read "Down In Front Cleon."  Survival Margin page 76.  The basic premise 
is that in the Imperium the "Sentient Creature" us a pretty hyporcitical 
thing.  The Imperium would never recognize the Cymbline chips as members 
of the Imperium because they, like the sentient robots, could be 
conveniently excluded and exploited for the "greater good of man kind."

I brought up this argument once to my GM after I figured out that the 
chips were sentient.  He gave me this article and a couple of others from 
Survival Margin to read.  I had a much lower opinion of the Imperial way 
of life after reading them.

Derek Stanley
____________________________________________________________________
|      There are Three types of people in this world:              | 
|  1) There are the, "Glass is half full" people.                  |
|  2) There are the, "Glass is half-empty" people.                 |     
| and then there's the,                                            |
|  3) "Who the hell's been drinking out of my glass!" people.      |     
- --------------------------------------------------------------------
| Derek Stanley | dstanley@direct.ca | On the left coast of Canada |
- --------------------------------------------------------------------


------------------------------

From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 13:18:52 -0700
Subject: Re: Sylean Exploration Corp.

Leonard Erickson wrote:
>> I'm assuming that you're writing from the States and Canada is 
>>generally considered up from the US of A. Where did you think I was 
>>writing from?
> 
> Sorry, I thought you were one of the Aussies.

Well at least you didn't think I was a Columbian.  "Vancouver Blend?"  
Hey it's a Columbian Coffee."  "That's BRITISH COLUMBIA!!"

Derek Stanley
____________________________________________________________________
|      There are Three types of people in this world:              | 
|  1) There are the, "Glass is half full" people.                  |     
|  2) There are the, "Glass is half-empty" people.                 |     
| and then there's the,                                            |
|  3) "Who the hell's been drinking out of my glass!" people.      |    
- --------------------------------------------------------------------
| Derek Stanley | dstanley@direct.ca | On the left coast of Canada |
- --------------------------------------------------------------------



------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 96 15:12:17 -0600
Subject: Re: Deckplans

On 07/02/96 at 07:38 AM,  normf@wegener.com said:

>No Visio does not export to other formats. But, yes, I just exported
>a Visio picture to Corel  3. Corel 3 exports a lot of formats. 

>Checked out the reverse. Corel will also export to Visio. So at least
>between these two products, there is compatibility. Corel objects
>will UNGROUP in Visio, so cross usage is possible.

BTW folks, I checked into prices for Corel and Visio...and choked!
Coreldraw 5 & 6's MSRP is $695, and Visio's MSRP is $249!  I only pay
that kind of money for things I'd use in my job...actually I'd try to
get the college to buy them.  <g> I can't see paying hundred's of
dollars for something I could do on graphpaper and then *scan* into
the computer.

>Are there any other drawing program formats that poeple are using?

I picked up a really inexpensive program called Floorplan Plus
($3.95...I really mean cheap!  <g>), Saturday and installed it.  I'm
new to this sort of on-screen drawing, but it looks like it might be
able to do deckplans, and I *know* it'll be able to do floorplans <g>
for gaming purposes.  It comes with over a hundred placable objects,
and has a section in the manual on how to build your own.  I *don't*
think it'll print a grid which is a problem, but one I could get
around.

FP is a vector based program, and its native format is propriatary,
but it will export to EPS (encapsulated postscript) and DXF (data
exchange format). 

My questions has to do with EPS and DXF.  I'm really not familar with
either format, what commonly available programs can display them? 

If I uuencode and send an EPS or DXF file to players in my PBEM are
they going to be able to view the results?  

I know they could handle raster formats like PCX or BMP, so are there
freeware/shareware/cheap programs that can convert EPS/DXF to raster?

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: Bill Garmer <bgarmer@tst.com>
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 07:09:11 -0700
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #190

At 05:36 PM 7/1/96 -0400, Leonard Erickson wrote:
<quoted text deleted>
>
>Check it out. Real sniper teams *do* go for head shots. And as I
>understand it, they tend towards custom rifles with muzzle velocities
>around 1500 m/s. Less drop, and they can shoot from farther out. 

True - they train to do it because you can never be certain to get a chance
at the center of mass.  Military snipers will aim for the center of the body
when possible but take a head shot if necessary (like taking out an OP).
Police snipers operate at much closer ranges and need the head shot to
prevent the target from doing anything after being hit (like shoot the hostages)

>Gives "reach out and touch someone" a whole new meaning.
>
>BTW, I understand that some folks use the Barrett .50 cal as a sniper
>weapon. That's what I assumed above. Like I said, it'd take nattele
>dress to survive a hit from *that*. :-)

Yes they do - it has been type accepted as the M82A1 (a few small
differences from the commerical version I believe)

>(God that rifle is a beautiful weapon. Pity it costs a small fortune)

Yes - a beautiful rifle but it weighs too much to carry anywhere.
     | Torrey Science Corporation            William R. Garmer
     |                                       Member Technical Staff
- -----+------------------------------------   CA PE Registration Number E-014776
     | 10065 Barnes Canyon Rd - Suite B      Voice: 619-552-1052
     | San Diego, CA 92121                   Fax:   619-552-1056
                                             e-mail: bgarmer@tst.com


------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #202
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